Home Staging. Designs. Life.

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Staging Myth Buster #1 -- Staging is Costly

 

Oprah's recent episode had prompted me to write this post today. True, for Oprah $10,000 is just toilet paper. But for people like us who earn our dimes and cents one hour at a time, $10,000 is accounts for averagely speaking 1/4 of our salaries a year. Contrary to popular belief, staging is not costly.

 Here are a few tricks that home sellers can do to reduce the cost of preparing their homes for sale:

  1. Paint. Paint is the cheapest investment one can make to make the room looks brand new. It makes sugar and spice and everything nice ;) A fresh coat of paint on the doors, trims and moldings can do wonders for an old drabby room. Sometimes instead of refinishing dark hardwood floor, you can paint the floor instead. That will help to make the room pop. If you have patches of yellow grass, spray paint can be a quick fix. Just be sure to test it first before you found out you bought the wrong color.

  2. Clean. Clean is KEY. Dirtiness will gross buyers out and make them think this is a ill-maintained home. Also it may give them an illusion that your house needs a lot of fixing, which may not be true at all. You just was too tired to put those rubbish away! But once you give the buyers the impression that your house needs a lot of fixing, they may turn to something else on the market that is comparable and less labor & money intensive. Take out all the trash in the house. Make your windows shine and sparkle like Martha's. If you can, give your exterior a nice powerwash. Isn't one of the first rule of dating is to take a shower and look presentable so you can impress your hot date? Same with selling your house!

  3. Trim. Trim your bushes. They are like children, they grow up and they grow wild if you don't tend to them. Remove all the dead branches, rake the leaves and make sure make sure make sure (look I used 3 make sures. This is important) that your bushes or trees do not block the house nor the view. You can't sell it if you can't see it. A messy yard can give the illusion that you didn't care for your property, i.e. it's is ill-maintained.

  4. Research before you hire. One of the reason why stagers charge so differently is because it's such a new business, there are really no industry regulations. Any person can make a business card and say he/she is a stager. Before you hire someone, make sure you check this person's background, how long they have been doing this (judge by the case #s not the years. One may be "in the business" for 5 years and only done 3 houses, compare to someone who is full time may only have the business for 1 year but done 15 houses). Find out what kind of education this person received and if it is credible. Google this business online to see what you can find out.

  5. Don't hire based on the pricing. True, cheap is good. But you also get what you paid for. Ask for a staging proposal. What are the things that are going into the home, so you don't think that your house will have full furniture when the stager meant "oh, it's light staging for this fee. We only do countertops." If you have questions, do not hesitate to ask. A reputable stager should be able to back up her/his services and fees with confidence.
2 commentsCindy Lin // Staged4more & EcoJoe • November 28 2006 02:38PM

What I am thankful for

 

It's the season of giving and thanks, so here is mine ;)

 I am very thankful for my family who has supported me through my endeavors of staging and starting my small business. Whether it is tirelessly helping me shop, hauling inventory onto our car, or hauling and organizing things in the warehouse, or providing financial & mental support, I am so thankful having them on my side. Having your own small business is a lonely island, and I am glad my family makes me feel not so lonely in the world :)

 I am very thankful to my teachers, especially Barb Schwarz, who had brought the gift of staging to my life during a time when it was very confusing to me in terms of my career path. I wasn't happy working as a realtor and Barb helped me walked down the path of staging. 

I am very thankful to the friends that I have made through staging industry. You all are my teachers and I learn from you everyday. You support me in ways that my best friends cannot because they don't understand what we go through.

 

THANK YOU! 

2 commentsCindy Lin // Staged4more & EcoJoe • November 27 2006 12:46PM

Getting Staging Education

Many people call or email me and asked "How do I become a Stager?" or specifically "which school is better?"  There are also debates if training is needed? But if you are thinking about investing that couple thousand dollars into a staging program. In my opinion, when it comes to choosing your staging education, there are several factors you should consider:

  1. What do you want to get out of your staging education? Why is it that you want to become a stager? Staging has become a profession that starts to gain press and attention because of media coverage which often paints a rosy picture how you can do this easily on your weekends and in between lunch breaks and numerous TV shows that had sprung up and consequently developed into a merchandise heaven for producers. But have you thought more about it other than how "easy" it can be to earn a quick buck? If so, read on..
  2. Research the profession & the business first. Talk to people who already are doing it. Why reinvent the wheel when you can just ride the wheel? Ask if you can intern or work for free to gain experiences. Although most stagers will prefer you get the education that they received so it will make it easier when you shadow them. Also know that the stagers you shadow have no obligations to give away trade secrets for free. They earned those through investing time and money into their education, as well as working in the fields. Be eager to learn but don't be irritating. Find out if this is really you cup of tea before you jump into the profession. Any business, no matter how small the overhead is, has overhead and expenses. Can you be prepared as a new stager which means you may not have steady income till 6 months, 1 year, down the line? Do you have marketing and business skills that will help you propel yourself to success? What does it take to run a small business? What do you need to get it off the ground? What are the paperwork and regulations like? How aware your market it about your field?
  3. Now, picking the actual education. I would recommend picking something that has hands-on staging time in an actual house, in an actual staging scenario. Also, think about what kind of stager do you want to be? Do you only want to do redesigns? Or do you want to just do consultations for people? Or do you want to do vacant homes? Look at the class descriptions to see what you can get out of it. And make sure it is a reputable company.

    I personally have gone to two different trainings, one is ASP (stagedhomes.com) the other IRIS (www.weredesign.com) both have very different focus and approach to their teachings and both have hands-on staging time, which I felt like is a must. I do have to be honest, I am very wary of the home courses that a lot of companies offer. I feel that it's just a quick money making scheme for the authors. (I personally have ordered one of these home courses and was VERY disappointed. What a waste of money!) (Although, this could be a hot  topic. Many people done home courses and have become stagers.)

    In my personal opinion, I can't learn staging off the book. I learn by doing. Sure I can learn how to date by buying "dummy's guide to dating" (yes there is such a book haha), but in reality can I date like I am Hugh Hefner? No. They can't teach people skills nor creativity from a book.

    Moreover, you cannot get interactions with your teacher & classmates from a book nor a classroom instruction course without hands-on staging time. When I stage with people, people's ideas and experiences bounce off each other and creativity spark. You come up with creative solutions to things that you yourself may not think of. Also, it creates more networking opportunity. You network with your classmates and you help each other grow each other's businesses. You may later decide having your own business is too hairy. You just want to partner up with someone. Moreover, you can pick your teacher's brain! Ask him/her all sorts of questions that you are confused about starting a business. And keep in touch, which brings me to the next point...
  4. What is the "alumni" association like? Find out if there is an association for the graduates. It's really a support and networking system. You are pretty much a new born in the business. You teacher can't just slap you on the butt and sends you out of the door! It's scary to start your own business, not to mention you are an island floating around the vast ocean by yourself. You need support. You need those bridges to connect you to other little islands. With support, you will feel much at ease when you actually have your first job.
2 commentsCindy Lin // Staged4more & EcoJoe • November 27 2006 12:32PM

busy unexpected weekend!

Randomly got a call on Thursday and we basically "emergency" staged this vacant home for an agent/flipper. We also went to the Design Within Reach sale and grabbed a bunch of nice accessories. The staging went relatively smooth this time except that the contractor took a little bit longer and I spaced out and forgot to load a couch on the truck. But mainly luckily I was already relatively prepared and have enough inventory but I am getting to the point of getting sick of my inventory.

I think the upcoming goal will be to adding some pieces. I am also looking into buying a box truck (any advice on this would be really appreciated!!!) My little baby is growing! So exciting! Really looking forward to next year now. ;)

 

3 Bdrm Single Family House - San Mateo
 
Charming Corner Home In The Heart of South Shoreview Neighborhood. Living room w/ fireplace, remodeled bathroom, freshly painted interior.
 

living room
additional information

Contact Info
  
Cindy Lin, ASP, IAHSP, CRIS
  
Staged4more Home Staging Services
  
hello@staged4more.com
  
650-283-6066
Price
$719,000
Street
1628 Shoreview Drive
City and State
San Mateo, CA
Property Type
Single Family House
Year Built
1950
Sq Footage
1,000
Bedrooms
3
Bathrooms
1 full, 0 partial
Floors
1
Parking
1 Car garage
Lot Size
5,850 sqft
HOA/Maint
$0 per month

Description

This property is STAGED and POSTED by Staged4more Home Staging Services. For full property details, please contact Listing Agent Lyndon Liu 415-370-7600. For more information on a list of Staged4more services, before and after pictures and news, please go to www.staged4more.com.

Other Special Features

 
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For full details on features, please contact Listing Agent Lyndon Liu 415-370-7600
6 commentsCindy Lin // Staged4more & EcoJoe • November 15 2006 12:53PM

see new potential logo here ;) let me know your feedback

so my web designer got back to me today with the new logo (i was so anxious!). let me know what you guys think of it! (opens in pdf format)

http://www.staged4more.com/logo
11 commentsCindy Lin // Staged4more & EcoJoe • November 08 2006 04:47PM

Vertical Response tsk tsk tsk

 

I am so SHOCKED by people's customer services skills sometimes. It makes me ponder that am I really that of an insignificant customer and they can just ignore my opinions? 

So I was trying out a few e-newsletter interface and started using vertical response. I had the worse time uploading the images. I tried several times and it kept showing up these technical codes that didn't make any sense at all. I used the live chat and the customer representative George told me that it's a jpeg problem, that I can only upload in CMYK format of jpeg. So I used photoshop and re-did the photo, it still didn't upload. When I wrote him back on the chat, he just left the chat room without responding. At first I thought it was just a software issue, so when I logged on again, George came up again. This time he left AGAIN. I was furious. 

There are a lot of issues that I started to have with Vertical Response.  At first I was impressed by their well-roundedness in terms of their online presence. Then I started to actually use the product, the templates were very basic and Microsoft Word template like, they aren't that great for users like me who are not advance enough to create templates on my own and they just are not professional looking enough. And I kept running into issues uploading the photos. I was just spending WAY too much time on a simple newsletter. When I reflected my thoughts to the customer service representative such as having a more clean error message which will make a lot more sense for customers, he replied that we have this listed in the FAQ section. (Which really pissed me off actually. We are in the service industry. We are in the business of saving our clients the trouble and money. To tell your customer to waste valuable time to look for soluntions themselves to me that is just a huge no-no. It doesn't take a lot for the company to assist customers to give them a better experience.) What really pushed me over the edge was the trouble-shooting person actually left me stranded twice on purpose.

This just goes to show that great marketing can lure the customers in, but if you don't save customers the trouble or providing excellent customer services to trouble shoot, you will still lose that customer!  

0 commentsCindy Lin // Staged4more & EcoJoe • November 07 2006 02:53PM

I need some help on my public identity..

So like I mentioned before my logo & site are getting a makeover and which got me thinking about tag lines and stuff. 

Originally my company's name is Staged4more when I first started. Then I get a lot of confused calls from vendors and others asking exactly what I do. So I added "Home Staging Services" behind it. Now I am thinking, since I recently added redesigns into my main services, I should reflect that as well?

 I am thinking about the following combination, let me know which one you feel sounds better:

  1. Staged4more
  2. Staged4more Home Staging Services
  3. Staged4more Home Staging & Redesigns
  4. Staged4more Staging & Redesigns

Tag lines: I notice a lot of stagers don't have a tag line. Here are a few that I have been using:

  1. Stage Your Listing to Sell 4 More
  2. We stage & redesign for the Model Home look in 1 day
  3. We specialize in making your space look good.

Or maybe I am just fussing with this too much?

7 commentsCindy Lin // Staged4more & EcoJoe • November 06 2006 01:49PM

Kick your take outs up a notch! ;)

the "lighter things" blog contiues... 

 

lorenadishes.jpg

 

Lorena Barrezueta is a Brooklyn-based ceramic artist who has been getting a lot of attention for her porcelain dishware, which is cast from aluminum takeout containers.

They are available online from The Curiosity Shoppe.

Now she just came out with... (drumroll please)

lorenaglass.jpg

ceramic party cups!

They are available online from The Curiosity Shoppe.

 

4 commentsCindy Lin // Staged4more & EcoJoe • November 05 2006 06:36PM

Why running your own small business is like Dating...

I haven't seen my boy for awhile, because he is having some issues. (Men PMS too, don't think it's a women's only thing.) And I am just like.... alright, do what you gotta do. I am here when you need me but since you don't want my help, I am not going to push you. You just work yourself out. Whenever you are ready, I am here. 

 Which reminds me, running your own small business is very much like dating.

  1. You gotta look good! We are in the visual representation business, therefore, when we stage the homes, don't forget to "stage" ourselves and our businesses. We are professionals, so dress accordingly. Your uniform during staging may be sweat shirts and yoga pants, but that's not what you should wear for your consultation appointment.
  2. Should I call? Why hasn't he call me yet? Most people don't believe me when I say this, but I am really actually very terrified to talk to clients, especially making the first initiations. My heart pounds rapidly whenever I get a call from client or I have to call someone. It's gut-wrenching! 
  3. Be prepared to face rejection! Real estate is not an easy business, a deal can fell through at any time. We also face rejections constantly.
  4. Be persistent. It's difficult to be persistent, but in order to thrive your business, you have to be diligent in marketing and prospecting.
  5. Whether you like it or not, you have to look deal with the uncomfortable issues. I used to think that if I have a contract, write everything down, there shouldn't be any issues with the clients. Many stagers will agree with me, boy was I wrong?! 
  6. You may have to severe a painful relationship. True, you want business, but is it really worth it to woo the difficult/high maintenance clients who are going to nick-pick everything that you do and try to negotiate every price you give him/her? Or someone who doesn't respect your professionalism?

;) 

 

3 commentsCindy Lin // Staged4more & EcoJoe • November 05 2006 06:25PM

Hiring A Professional

So after much internal debates, I finally decided to plunk down some cash to get an overall identity & web redesign. That's right, my business identity needs a makeover!

So finally, I am tired of tweaking my websites day and night and spending time on passive non-income-producing activities. Also like every professional, my time is worth X per hour. Use that and multiply to all the hours I spent on making my website look like a kid's amateur work and several real estate website books later, I am done with it! I need to be spending my time on something more productive! Making my website was tedious and frankly I am embrassed whenever I look at it. It has no style and no visual impact, which is what I make my businesses out of -- style & visual impact!

I finally have decided that hey, I am not a web professional. I am a home staging & redesign professional. I should focus my efforts on what I do best, NOT on things that I can do but not do well. It's like Realtors know how to "stage" their clients' housese too. They too can buy a book and do it yourself. But why do you pay that upcharge and hire someone else to do it? Because we are the professionals! We are worth that money. This is why I can sell my own house but I don't. I hire a Realtor because they are the professionals. And it's like how my friend Karen puts it, it's also someone else's stress and liability. It will just make your life a little bit easier and then you can focus on what you do best.

Ah, the torment! 


3 commentsCindy Lin // Staged4more & EcoJoe • November 03 2006 09:58PM

Just feel like blogging about the lighter side of things recently... so here it is

For those multi-tasking showers --SAT Shower Curtain!!


main_curtain2.jpg

For multi-taskers who eschew the idea of showers as a time for quiet contemplation and would rather cram in a study session while lathering up, The Intuitive Learning Company's (TILCO) line of educational shower curtains brings learning to every room of the home. Striving to "educate by observation through the process of combining a stylistic display of simple educational topics on common products found in the home," TILCO currently offers shower curtains featuring SAT vocabulary, SAT math, english grammar, as well as French and Spanish Vocabulary. Available online for $20.

2 commentsCindy Lin // Staged4more & EcoJoe • November 03 2006 02:41PM

Design Within Reach Warehouse Sales: NY, Cincinnati, SF

November 02, 2006
Shop DWR Newsletter Sign-Up Designers Studio Locator Get Catalog
 
DWR Warehouse Sales: New York Metro, Cincinnati and SF Bay Area
New York Metro
Annex Sale
Cincinnati-Area
Warehouse Sale
Bay Area
Sample Sale
Our Secaucus Annex is getting a new shipment of classic pieces just for this weekend. Always a great resource for overstocked and returned goods, the Annex will be packed with product. Find out why Cincinnati Magazine featured the DWR Warehouse Sale in its article "Bargains: The Best Deals on Everything." Our warehouse will be packed with pieces for every room in the house. Samples we never carried, props from photo shoots, high quality floor samples, all on sale. Find unique and classic pieces that you might not have seen before.
When: When: When:
Friday and Saturday,
November 10 and 11,
10am-7pm
Saturday, November 11,
9am-5pm
Sunday, November 12,
9am-3pm
Saturday, November 11,
10am-4pm
Sunday, November 12,
11am-4pm
Where: Where: Where:
DWR Annex
55 Hartz Way
Secaucus, NJ 07094
DWR Hebron, Kentucky
Warehouse
(near the Cincinnati Airport)
2360 Progress Dr.
Hebron, KY 41048
DWR Palo Alto Studio's Old Location
151 University Ave.
Palo Alto, CA 94301
Click here for directions Click here for directions Click here for directions
0 commentsCindy Lin // Staged4more & EcoJoe • November 02 2006 03:54PM

soooo purrrty

Defyra Glasses

Defyraglasses1-1 Defyraglasses3-2 Defyraglasses2-1

Mixing a clean, Scandinavian aesthetic with warm jewel tones and inventive design, glassware by the Stockholm-based design quartet Defyra lends casual elegance to any dinner table. Swaths of bright greens, deep burgundies and pale lavenders on glass and porcelain evoke the sensual pleasures of eating, as do stemless goblets with angled rims in the same palette. Contact the designers directly at defyra [at] defyra [dot] nu for more info.

0 commentsCindy Lin // Staged4more & EcoJoe • November 02 2006 02:23PM

SF Local Industry-Only Designer Sale

San Francisco Mart - PUBLIC SAMPLE SALE

1355 Market St
San Francisco, CA 94103View Map
(415) 552-2311
Editorial Review

The wholesale home furnishing center opens its doors to the public for great deals on sofas, entertainment centers, lighting and more.

 

In Short

Furniture shoppers grab the rare opportunity to check out 60 showrooms of designer furnishings during this one-day sale. Buyers can pick up floor samples of enviable home accoutrements, while getting the chance to cruise around a mega-store that is usually only open to industry professionals. Five floors host everything from office to bedroom furniture.

Editorial content is independent of paid advertisers. Any expenses are paid for by Citysearch.

Insider Tips

Know Before You Go

If you find something you like but it won't fit in the trunk, home delivery is available for an extra fee.

Save Money

Go to the mart's website for a printable coupon worth $1 off admission.

When to Go

Arrive early to minimize your line time.

Parking

If the SF Mart garage is full, there is additional parking at the Civic Center Plaza Garage, Fox Plaza Garage and Central Parking System on Jessie St.

Schedule

Date Times Event
11/04/2006             
9:00 am-6:00 pm
1 commentCindy Lin // Staged4more & EcoJoe • November 02 2006 01:11PM

this is a stroy about my heater guy frank

So I was forced to "signed up" for the job to manage my relative's rental property. And just my luck now there is a new tenant and basically they call me every other day because something doesn't "feel right." Because it's a property considered a high-end rental, I pretty much always oblige. It's an old house and the heater after 2 service calls, I finally decided that this heater needs to be retired so I called for several companies to bid.

Frank actually gave me the worst first impression. He seemed didn't really care if he had the business or not. He came by, did his thing and left. The other 3 kind of chatted with me and all that jazz. Then I was shocked by Frank's price. He came under $1000-$2000 from the others. There were 2 whose price was quite similar and the other was significantly higher than the others. But Frank was WAY lower. I was seriously debating if I had heard him wrong. When I asked him about it: "All I am doing is to install the heater. For me it's an easy job. We also don't upcharge because of it's Hillsborough (a high end neighborhood in SF bay area). It's not that big of a deal. Most people gave me the job because we are significantly cheaper. I know that. But I have had this business since my father gave it to me. We work on referrals only. So I don't really care about that. I just care about installing the heater."

I was floored. After much internal debate (mainly because his price was so much shockingly lower than others) we had him installed it. He was very short and direct and got the job done. I was VERY impressed by his work.  He had completely won me over about his work. In the future whenever there was a maintence issue, he always came without complaints. He came, did his job and I was always happy to pay the fee without arguing because I know he is not out to get me. On my way driving home from the rental property today, I thought to myself: "Only if they make more guys like Frank! It will make my life so much easier!"

 

Frank has inspired me, about his business philosohpy. He sincerely cares about his business, even though it may be boring to others. He believes in his work and his price, and that really came through and showed the customers. The other 3 companies were sincere as well, but something was just not there. They came out because it's their job to do so, not because they want to. Frank came out because he believed in his reputation and he wanted to make sure everything is great for his customers. 

 I also have been toying with the idea of price. People always say that if your work is good, you are worth the $. But wouldn't it make more sense to offer affordable pricing to customers so they can benefit from my great services?

He gave me a lot to think about! 

0 commentsCindy Lin // Staged4more & EcoJoe • November 01 2006 05:25PM

Staging Profession Inquiries

For some reason I get these a lot, probably because I serve as the San Francisco chapter president for International Association of Home Staging Professionals.

I received another one yesterday. This was a fairly common question, so I figure I should post and de-mythify some of the misconception about interior design vs. staging. Let me know if you agree or disagree with me or not!

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Greetings -

I found your website and contact information through stagedhomes.com.  I am writing because I was wondering if I might be able to schedule a time to meet with you to discuss your career path and what you enjoy about being a home stager.  I am considering taking the ASP course and starting a home staging business, and would like to get some feedback and advice from someone who has been through the program. 

A little about me - for the past two years I have been working as an attorney, and have discovered that it is certainly not the career path I wish to follow for the rest of my life.  After much soul searching, I've landed on the interior design field as being the field that would best match my personality, talents, and passions.  I have taken a class in interior design through UC Berkeley extension, and plan to enroll in a certificate program in January.  Before I start this major life change, I would love to talk with people in the industry and get any and all advice about working in the industry.

I understand that you are very busy, and would greatly appreciate any guidance you might be able to give me.  I can be reached at this email address, or at any of the contact information below.

Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,

 

 [A]

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear A


Thanks for writing.

I have to be very frank. I am not good at sugar-coating. Interior design is very different from staging. Interior designers personalize their clients' spaces. They listen to what they want "okay, purple accent walls here and neon wallpaper there" and they design accordingly then mix in with their own styles. Staging is about appealing to general public, therefore de-personalizing. The client may want me to do a purple theme, but I won't because I am staging their homes to sell. Their homes have became products the moment they decide to sell, and most sellers don't realize that.

I cannot tell you which way is better. I have known interior designers turned stagers and vice versa. It depends what you really want and how you want to work.

The scope of the 2 businesses are very different as well. Interior designer jobs usually take longer, comparing to staging jobs, usually is one-day installation then you are pretty much done. But the profit margin obviously are very different. The issues you encounter are also very different. Interior designers do not need to worry about inventory space, mover issues, maintenance of inventory, purchasing of inventory or possible harm & liability during installations since they use contractors. The paperwork is also very different, as a stager, I have significantly less paperwork than interior designers.

It sounds like you are serious about your career change, but I would like to recommend you to "intern" for a stager or interior designer before you make that leap. Go on a job with them or hang out with them for a day to see what it really is like in a day of interior designer/stager before and behind the scenes. Our fields seem very glam and very easy going, but they really are not. We are not about simply rearranging furniture like people would with a doll house (also doll house furniture are tiny! Real furniture are very heavy!!). Most stagers I know (including me) are far less than glam. We schlep our own furniture in our sweat pants on jobs and deal with uncomfortable issues with realtors & homeowners such as payment issues and damages, etc. It's physically and emotionally stressful at times.

Also, before you make that career shift, I would recommend to have 6-months worth of reserve as most people in real estate industry would tell you. It's tough to have a small business. It's tougher in real estate. There are hot seasons and slow seasons in real estate and subsequently staging. You need to have a plan of what you can do to deal with your hot and slow seasons. Go to small business centers or read up on what it takes to have a small business. It's easy to start one, but it's what you put into it.

I don't want to discourage you at all, I LOVE MY JOB and I LOVE STAGING. The reason that why I sound discouraged at all is I feel most people think staging & interior design is a glam and very easy job. It's seem that the public's perception is like on the HGTV shows, in one blink of the eye, everything is done. But most people don't realize those shows take several days to film. There are no way to stage a home by yourself and be done within a hour!

Being my own boss really liberated me, but at the same time, it's all on me. Failure or Success. There are no excuses and it's hard to be self-disciplined. Having a small business can also really take up your life. I have not bought a new piece of something for me for a very long time now. It's all for the business. You have to be careful and strike a balance with your personal life.

If you have any more additional questions, please feel free to email me!

Hope this helps,

Cindy


4 commentsCindy Lin // Staged4more & EcoJoe • November 01 2006 01:48PM